>> Carl Whitaker was a John of a man in both physical presence and the size of his heart. Trained as an individual therapist, Whitaker quickly evolved into a systems perspective that would permeate his work with some of the most influential therapists of the 20th century. Whitaker believed in co-therapy. Saying toward the end of his life that he was just getting to the point where he could nurture people on his own. His work with Tom Malone, Gus Napier, David Keith and William Bombery, all resulted in advances in family therapy. In many ways Whitaker's work is an application of extentualism in the context of family therapy. As you will see in the next video segment there is always anxiety in a family experiencing distress. But unlike some other models symbolic experiential therapists seek to increase the anxiety rather than alleviate it. Whitaker compared his work to surgery, suggesting that in order to remove a pathology the surgeon had to be able to tolerate a sometimes significant loss of blood. Kram Disk [assumed spelling] is a professor of counseling at East Tennessee State University. He has a long history of working with an experiential model even though his own approach has evolved recently into the practice of acceptance therapy and other post modern approaches. In this video he uses two interventions that are highly associated with symbolic experiential therapy. He asks almost all of his questions in a relational form, that is he frames questions in terms of the relationships that the family members have with each other. He also prods and pokes at family members especially the mother and father in an effort to augment the feeling levels of the family and get them more honest direct interactions. >> Okay. We've met for about 10 minutes. And here's kind of what I'm picking up on, that everything would be better in the family if you had people listening to you. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. That you're in control and if people would just do what you say then things would go a lot better. And Doug you'd like to be in control some but you feel like you don't get your chance to do that. And Megan you feel like a burden in the family. Am I kind of getting it right so far? >> Megan: Yeah. >> Okay. And what I'm wondering is this position that you've got as being in control is that kind of an elected position or are you just a sucker? And you've kind of fallen into try and be the one in control? It's really easy to get blamed for the whole thing. You know the whole mothers are responsible for everything. So did you really kind of picked this or did you get elected in this family to be in control? >> Well, I mean, Doug won't help me with any of the decisions. He kind of expects me to take care of everything. I've had to raise four children. I don't believe I'm trying to control as much as I'm trying to look out for everyone's best interest. >> Doug: Well, I don't like conflict, so you know, when an issue of controversy comes up, I'm just not going to fight with her about it. So, she can have control because I'm not going to get in a losing battle. >> So you'll give, you like the idea that she'd be in control and you can just kind of stay out of it. >> Doug: Well. >> But then you don't like that she is in control but you kind of give her the control. >> Doug: Right. >> How long do you think that can keep going on? >> Doug: Well, it's been going on for about 20 years, now so few more is not going to make any difference. >> Well, we're too old to look for anyone else. >> Right. Is it that you don't think Doug's really capable of having any control or contributing to anything and so you'll just take it or could he really do something with it? I mean do you have to be in control because he just really doesn't know what to do? >> Well he is quiet, he won't express anything. >> Well that maybe his way of keeping you in control. >> What am I supposed to do? >> I don't know. >> I mean everything will go all to hell if I don't do it. >> Okay. >> Doug: Well that's her hell. >> That's the part I'm wondering if you, you know, if you got suckered into that or you really believe that? >> Suckered into what? >> It will all go to hell if you're not in control. That's what we do with women in our culture, you know. We want to blame them for everything. >> Absolutely. >> And so the more we can get them to believe that it's their fault and if they're not in control it goes to hell. It kind of keeps them nicely in their place. >> And you're point? >> Is whether you like that? Or you've been suckered into that? I mean maybe that's what you're after. >> I don't, I don't know and I don't really understand. We're here because Megan won't get a job. >> What do you think Megan? Has your mom been suckered into having control or think maybe she likes it? >> Megan: I think she loves it. I think she really loves it. >> Alright. You help her have a sense of being in control. Like you said you're a burden, I'm wondering, you know as long as you're a burden then she's got something to work on. >> Megan: Do I like her being in control? >> Yeah. >> Megan: I don't know. >> I mean you said she loves it. You love your mother so maybe you'd give her what she wants. >> Megan: You know I feel like whether we like it or not, she'll just take control. >> Well kind of like I was asking how she felt about your dad, does she just think you are incompetent? And so she needs to be in control because you really don't know what to do with your own life? >> Megan: I think she does. >> Has it been that way for a long time or is it just kind of a recent thing? >> Megan: It's been that way ever since I can remember. Nothing I do is good enough for her. >> Right, right. >> I'm trying to help prepare you for the real world. >> Megan: What's the real world mom? >> Doug: How would you know you haven't been out in it? >> Excuse me? >> Doug: Well you've been inside taking care of the house; I've been working building a business all over the world. >> Right, you've left me alone to take care of everything. >> Doug: Yeah, but your world is just what is contained inside your kitchen and in controlling our lives inside this building. >> So how is it some guy who can go out and build a business and travel all over the world wouldn't know what to do in his own home? >> Well, maybe he's just not taken any initiative. Maybe he is lacking a little bit in the backbone. >> Doug: Laughs. Maybe I just don't want it in the back all the time. >> Is that something you'd want? You see with him to have some backbone at home. Use some of what he knows how to do quote in the real world, bring it in and use in the fake world at home? >> Well it might be nice if it was, you know, apparently a little condescending here. I live in a little tiny world of a kitchen. >> Have any interest in that? >> Doug: Not if I have to fight you know for the spoons and the forks. >> Right, right. >> Well, I'll give them to you. >> So you don't have to fight for anything out in the real world? It just all comes easy. Nobody tries to give you a hard time, you don't have to fight for anything? >> Doug: No, it's, its, different. It's not adversarial. >> Business isn't adversarial? Everything is just kind of easy going out there in the real world? >> Doug: Well, no, I mean it has its trials too it's just different, I don't know. >> So you would fight for something out there in the business world? >> Doug: I just don't like having all this tension around the house after I've worked all day long. I'd just rather have a quiet evening where I can relax and not be confronted with stuff, night after night. >> Right. So she's supposed to appreciate what's been going on out there all your hard work in the real world, you should come home and be able relax. >> Doug: Yeah, I don't come home and criticize what she's done in, in the house. So why should she assault me with what I haven't done for her today. >> Right. This look like something you would want to repeat you know someday, you know, when you get in a relationship with someone? Kind of what you'd see your mom and dad doing here. Husband comes home, he's tired, just wants to relax, you've been in living in a fantasy world at home, he's in the real world. What do you think of this dance they do? >> Megan: I think it's ridiculous. >> You chose to move back home. >> Megan: So I don't have anywhere else to go right now mom. I would much rather be somewhere else. >> If you would take the time to apply for jobs that might happen. >> So is that an example of how you're trying to help her? >> Well she says she doesn't want to be here. She tells me she's a burden. How do you think that makes a mother feel? You know if she were to actually apply for jobs it would increase her probability of getting one. And then she could move out and do what she wants to do. >> I'm thinking...